Interview – Peter Daly-Dickson
My interview with Peter Daly-Dickson, founder of Conquer The Chaos and the creator of macanta – the preferred front end for Infusionsoft. (No, this is not an Infusionsoft Podcast!)
Transcript (Click To Open)
Pieter: Hi there. It’s Pieter and you are listening to the Build a Better Business podcast. My guest today is Peter Daly-Dickson, a very good friend of mine. He runs a company called Conquer the Chaos who do some clever and tech integration software development. He then also focuses very heavily on Macanta, which is the preferred front-end interface for Infusionsoft. If you don’t have Infusionsoft, but you’ve heard of it, don’t worry. This is not an Infusionsoft podcast. We cover many things that can help you to build a better business. I bring you Peter Daly-Dickson. Hi Peter, how are you?
PDD: I’m good, Pieter.
Pieter: This is gonna be strange, isn’t it?
PDD: Yeah, absolutely.
Pieter: We cannot say our names with the correct spelling because our names are spelled differently, but …
PDD: Pronounced exactly the same. I guess we could be Pieter.
Pieter: You could, you could.
PDD: How’re you doing?
Pieter: Very very well, thank you. Thanks for coming on.
PDD: Long time no see. No worries.
Pieter: As you are aware, what I try and do with these podcasts is keep them to about half an hour or so and really just give people tips, tools, ideas, things they could use to help them to build better businesses. The focus isn’t specifically around marketing, sales, anything like that. It’s the business as a whole. Because I think people get fixated on one element of their business, and this is what I need to work on.
PDD: Good, because I’m a lousy marketer.
Pieter: That’s fine. Well you can find someone to do that and focus on the other bit.
PDD: Yeah, like you.
Pieter: First question up then. Your business, Conquer the Chaos, how would you say you help other business owners to build better businesses?
PDD: That’s a really great question. There’s a couple of ways in which we do that. I think my biggest skill is the ability to absorb a whole load of inputs and aspects of problems and very rapidly connect dots and come up with solutions. Which, to me, seem relatively straightforward and I find it quite easy to do that, but I don’t know if you ever found this, Pieter, that there’s something that you’re innately, inherently good at and gifted at, you assume that everyone else is good at that too. Yeah?
Pieter: Yeah, it’s as if you live in your bubble and you assume, well, this is easy. Why isn’t it easy for you?
PDD: Yeah, so a case in point, I remember just a couple of days ago … As you know, I’ve been out at the Infusionsoft user conference, ICON, Phoenix last week. One of my clients was out there, and we were telling … One evening I think we had a few drinks, but it wasn’t because of that I promise you. Someone else involved with the conversation and she said, “One of the things I really appreciate about working with Pete is that he came in and saw us and just really, really quickly just understood everything.” Hearing that echoed back was like … I just took that for granted that people could do that.
One of the ways that I help business owners is I can help them very rapidly find solutions to problems. Typically, because of my programming and development background … I haven’t coded for donkey’s years … But those solutions typically, when I’m involved, are crafted and created in code. I’ll work with the business owner, we can find a solution to a business problem and then we can create either an app or some form of software to solve that problem, and because of my involvement in the Infusionsoft community, those problems and those solutions typically involve Infusionsoft being integrated with some other system.
That’s primarily what we do is we work with businesses who have Infusionsoft that probably been using it for a couple of years. They are aware of its limitations. They want it to do more, and primarily that’s by getting Infusionsoft to integrate and talk to things that it can inherently do itself. That’s one way that we help businesses grow.
Pieter: That’s quite interesting, because with the way business is going now … There’s an awful lot of software tools available. Every company seems to go out to try and fix a problem for the marketplace and for their customers, but a lot of the time it is in isolation to what else they might be using or in isolation of whatever tools they might have available. It’s interesting, a lot of the stuff that you do, and we get involved in some of it, is where you are saying, well okay, well you’ve got this bit over here. You’ve got that bit over there. You’ve got that bit over there. On their own, they’re great, but they’d be so much better if they’ll actually work together.
PDD: Yeah. You talk about working together there. I’m talking about tools. There are other tools out there like, Zappier and Waikato and other tools that allow different systems to talk to each other, but the sort of project we get involved in is where there … Zapier’s not trivial by any stretch of the imagination, but … Let me give you an example, shall I. That might help bring it to life.
We’ve recently come to the end of a project for a security CCTV intrusion alarm company. They use Infusionsoft, but they also have another system, which does all of their engineering management, project management, allocation of work, job management. That sort of thing. We use Infusionsoft for marketing, and they use this other system for controlling the jobs. Their sales consultants use Excel to create the quotes and the proposals. They’re a very complex Excel Macro template, which the user can put in all the different part numbers and it just automatically calculates the quote. This goes backwards and forwards between the sales consultant and the prospects over the period of weeks.
What we’ve done is we’ve created a tool that allows a sales consultant to upload their spreadsheet. We suck out all their data. We create opportunities on the fly inside Infusionsoft and every time their spreadsheet is updated they upload it again and it updates the opportunity. When the opportunity is won they update it for a final time. They hit a button and then we create the project and all of the associated stuff inside the job management system. They’re still using exactly the same tool that they use, the spreadsheet, but because of what we’ve done, their business is now automated in a way that they previously didn’t think it would ever be able to because the Excel spreadsheet was such … They invested so much into this costing sheet they didn’t think they would ever be to automate on the back of it. That comes back to creative thinking about solving problems. I couldn’t even begin to develop the solution that we came up with but I can think it. What’s the saying? If you can think it or dream it you can achieve it, or something like that.
Pieter: It’s something that I’ve seen on other projects with you, that is a skill that you have. People forget that it is a skill in and of itself, is being able to think it and then properly brief someone else to create it.
PDD: Exactly. I’m incredibly fortunate to work with a couple of gifted programmers. Andre [inaudible 00:07:46] and [inaudible 00:07:47], we’ve been working together for four, five, six years. It’s almost like a shortcut in communication. I tend to start with a mock up of an interface and that helps to drive the conversation, but I find that we don’t have to go over things too much. We have a language, which we know can help us get to a finished product very quickly.
Pieter: That reminds me, I’ve recently been listening quite a lot to Dan Sullivan. He uses the process that you … He says you split the business into make it up, make it real, and make it recur. The make it up is the bit of you thinking it and being able to brief your developers. They’re the ones who make it real, and it’s your ongoing relationship that makes it recur. It’s the technology that you use that makes it recur for the client. What he says is that the make it up is the 80% of the project because the make it up … If the make it up doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen correctly, the other parts are not possible and also not required at that point.
PDD: Yeah, or if the make it up isn’t done well enough then the other bits don’t get done effectively, which causes waste and problems of their own.
Pieter: Within your own business, how do you make sure that your business is always getting better in one shape or another?
PDD: Hang on a second, because I said there’s two ways that we help businesses grow. That’s the first way. The second way is a columniation of everything we’ve talked about in the first. We’ve developed, effectively, it’s a front end to Infusionsoft. It’s called Macanta. It really addresses a primary issue that I have come across with Infusion soft user since I’ve first started using Infusionsoft back in 2009. I had it there as a customer. I became a certified partner, in my own right, in 2011. I found, over and over and again, that people love the power of Infusionsoft, the campaign builder, the automation engine. I know talking to you, it’s like preaching to the choir, but it’s absolutely second to none. There is no other tool on the market for small businesses that does what Infusionsoft can do in the campaign builder.
Maybe partly because the software is 15 years old … To its credit, it’s 15 years old. It’s been around a long time. It’s a granddaddy. The interface, to a large part, when you’re doing things on a day-to-day basis with the contacts that you’re dealing with in your business, Infusionsoft interface can be a little bit awkward, a little bit, honestly, confusing. There’s just so much there. There is so much in the Infusionsoft interface that you have to almost consciously disregard to be able to focus on the bits of it that you do need.
What we’ve done is we’ve stripped away most of the stuff that most people don’t need on a day-to-day basis just to help improve people’s productivity and help increase their efficiency, adding things in there, which Infusionsoft, we know, is never going to add in. The ability to quickly make phone calls and have those phone calls recorded, global postal address validation … Again, just simple things well executed to solve the problem that I found as I saw people using Infusionsoft. We are very proud about that.
Pieter: You should be. We use it within our own business and we also instal it and set it up for some of our clients, and it does, because the Infusionsoft [inaudible 00:11:23] … I think this happens for a lot of pieces of software. It’s not just Infusionsoft, but when you get to that level its strongest point is also it’s [inaudible 00:11:32] where there is so much that you can do with it that it just means to actually … You need quite a high level of understanding to just get to the bit you want to do.
PDD: Hearing you say that, I’m taking onboard that we need to be that cognizant and aware that that’s possible of Macanta also, that we could get to a point where we’ve got so much in it that it’s actually counterproductive. It’s one of my jobs now that Macanta is out there, it’s in the world, it’s being used by Infusionsoft partners like yourself and their clients, is I’m kind of the gatekeeper to requirements. Not only does [inaudible 00:12:11] or some kind of functionality have to be requested by a lot of people over time but also has to be something that really fits with my vision of what Macanta is and how it can benefit business.
I say it’s got to be asked by a lot of people. That’s not always the case. We’ve had some things which we put into Macanta over the last few months where it’s just been suggested by one person, but it’s like, bingo. If I’d thought of it myself it would have gone into Macanta at the very beginning. Having a lesson there in business, possibly, is that if you have something that you create for your market, just be very protective of what you put into that product that you don’t over engineer it, that you keep it as simple and as elegant as possible.
Simple and elegant is the watch word in everything that we do. I think there’s a lot to be gained there for any business owner that is creating things for their market. People don’t like complex. They possibly like what they’re working with to do complex things, but if you’re creating something that has to be used by other people then just make it as simple as possible. Was it you that told me about it? I’m going off on a tangent. I can’t think quick enough on my feet. Simple wins in business.
One of the themes of the conference ICON that I went to, and in fact, it’s really the thrust of Infusionsoft’s new mission to impact literally millions of small business owners to help them grow is simplify growth. This thing of business ownership and business growth can be incredibly complex. We’ve talked about just a few tools today. When you start employing people you’ve got employee regulations and management responsibility and all these things can just make the whole job of growing a business both incredibly complex and incredibly hard.
One of the great things about tools like Infusionsoft that you’re using properly [inaudible 00:14:05] about simplifying growth, simplify growth. There’s actually one thing that came out of ICON. If you focus on it, at the exclusion of everything else, you will simplify your growth and you will grow. We’ll come on to that in a little bit.
Pieter: Let’s leave that hanging for a little bit later, but it’s interesting what you said about people like to do complex things. They like to use things that allow them to do complex things, but they don’t want the thing itself to be complex. When you said it, it reminded me … My younger brother is a classical pianist and a rather accomplished one. The music he plays and that he’s played for many years is inherently very complex, but anybody can walk past a piano and make it make a sound.
PDD: That’s very true.
Pieter: The piano itself, if you had to build one, again, it would be complex, but the execution of making a piano make sound is actually really, really simple, but it allows you to do extremely complex things should you choose.
PDD: Absolutely. That’s the ultimate interface, isn’t it? It’s just like, how many keys are there on a piano? 82, or something, series of white and black keys, and with that simplicity you can create incredibly complex [crosstalk 00:15:21]
Pieter: If you think about all the music written, let’s say, just in the last 200 years, it’s all based on that same structure with different sounds and [that 00:15:28], but essentially … If I pull you back to your business, and you say you’ve been to ICON, so I recon attending events like that would probably be on your list, but how do you make sure that your business is getting better, be that operationally, what service you provide to the marketplace? Anything like that.
PDD: I don’t want to gloss over the importance of attending events, that they’re either attended by your peers or by your target market. The great thing about ICON, for me, is that in one event it encapsulates both. There were over 200 fellow Infusionsoft certified partners at ICON. There was also three and a half plus thousand Infusionsoft users there. There is something almost magical about getting off your backside, getting out from behind your computer and going and meeting people face-to-face.
Pieter: You mean the basic human interface.
PDD: Yeah. That ultimate simple interface, which is the most complex of things, relationships. This is basically what I’m coming to, is that the thing that I do to make sure that my business is growing in the right way is to focus on the relationships of people that are important to me. People like you and David, and then people like other Infusionsoft partners, people who have got to where I aspire to be. Jim Rose says, you become the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. That’s not time on Facebook groups and Facebook messenger. That’s actually making the physical and monetary and emotional investment to get out there and build and maintain relationships with people that are important to you. Anything else pales into insignificance in terms of helping you grow your business, because I’ve always said … My wife always jokes that I always say I always said. I always say that business ownership, bar anything else, is the single best playground … And I use that word deliberately and consciously. Business ownership is the single best playground for personal growth that exists.
Pieter: Yeah. I [00:17:35] with that.
PDD: That’s mainly who you have to become in the process of growing a business. That growth-
Pieter: If you don’t develop the business and if you don’t become someone else from five years from now or six months from now than what you are today there is no way you are going to achieve what you want in business. The business is not going to be able to … What got you here is not going to get you there.
Pieter: You have to make that change.
PDD: In fact, this is brilliantly articulated. A good friend of mine, he publishes a magazine called Business Success Magazine. The whole ethos of it is personal growth before business growth. It’s that, if you want your business to grow you’ve got grow yourself. If you’re not growing personally, if you’re not putting yourself out there, taking yourself out of your comfort zone, getting yourself into relationships and making that emotional commitment then your business, as you quite rightly say, is never going to grow. That’s one of the most important things that I do to make sure my business is growing.
Pieter: Anything else?
PDD: Yeah. It comes back to something that I got from Clare Mask, the chief executive Infusionsoft’s keynote on the first day. It’s all about this simplifying growth. I talked about the one thing earlier, which we just left as an open loop there. Anyone listening to this that has an interest in copywriting or sales will recognise what we did. That is, Clare Mask, he talks about it a little bit.
He said, when I say this to you you’re just going to say it cannot be. That’s [impossible 00:19:06], because we know there’s no silver bullet. There’s no one thing that’s going to solve our problems, but when you think about all the distractions and all of the potential complexity and stuff that we’ve talked about with business ownership is that if business owners just focused on fixing and improving the follow-up in their business that would do more to simplify and enhance their growth than any other thing.
There’s lots of stats about how much more likely people are to buy when they’re followed up within a certain period of time of the first inquiry or how much touchpoints or how many bits of communications requires with people before they buy. Clare Mask talked about three main types of follow up. Follow up with people that inquire about your services. Find someway of getting the message out there, whether it be lead magnets or Facebook adverts or something. I don’t know anything about Facebook ads. That’s why I work with people like you. You don’t have to know it all. You just know that you have to [do 00:20:04] something to generate inquires. Once you’ve got those inquiries, have some for of follow up to get those people to buy.
I met some people at ICON last week that have follow up sequences that are that two or three years long. It’s all personal then it’s all automated and that’s sometimes seen as an oxymoron. How can it be automated? How can it be personal? Well, you write the email as if you were writing it personally to one person and then marketing automation, with tools like Infusionsoft, just allow you to scale that personal attention, which is a good way to think about marketing automation. Have a automated follow up system in place for people that inquire about you.
Then have a automated follow-up in place for people who wants to become customers, a sort of welcome campaign. Make sure that everyone that becomes a customer experiences the same consistent high-quality experience. Consistency is one of the hardest things to deliver in a business. That’s because it’s largely left to chance. If Jane, who is the ultimate people person happens to be off sick for a couple of days and you haven’t got an automated system then, people who’d become customers while Jane’s off, they might not have such a good experience of your business. Follow-up campaigns to follow-up the leads, one for welcome and then you have a final follow-up campaign, long-term nurture.
At least once a month you’re sending some form of value-added content to all of your prospects and your customers. If business owners, if they spent a couple of days and just said … I might have to swear on your podcast.
Pieter: If you like, yes.
PDD: I’m just going to say, fuck it to everything else that’s out there. There’s too much distraction. There’s too much going on. I’m just going to focus on making sure that everyone that inquires about my business is followed up with in a consistent, repeated timely manner to ensure as many of those people buy as possible. I’m also going to make sure that everyone that buys has a consistent high-quality experience of becoming a customer. I’m also going to make sure that at least once a month I’ve got some form of value added content and information and communication going out to all prospects and customers. When I heard that, I thought, “You know what, that’s the basics. That’s the frickin’ basics,” but the basics of what it’s all about … There’s a wonderful story …
Pieter: Sorry to interrupt, but I think a lot of the time what we see … Because we spend some of our time doing it for customers, but we very much do it for ourselves, that would you say takes two days out and say, well, nothing else exists. For the next few days I’m doing this one thing. That’s part of our business model. We make a point of at least once every 90 days we disappear and we’re not available to anyone. We work on something, because something needs to be done. If you just schedule that time in the world doesn’t come to an end, the way I always look at it. None of us run emergency departments at your nearest hospital, so if you need to take a couple of days you take a couple of days, because people do. It is the basics, but people get so stuck on … I mean, us geeks are probably as guilty as anyone else. We get so stuck in what’s shiny, what’s new, what’s complicated, what’s fashionable that we completely forget about the basics, the simple things that can make a real difference.
PDD: This is the basic things. What I was going to say earlier is a wonderful story about Vince Lombardi … I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. He was a former head coaching to the Green bay Packers, is it? [inaudible 00:23:38] follows the NFL American football. The story I’ve heard about him is the beginning of spring training every year … Bear in mind that he’s talking with players that are paid, at the time, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars per year. He would hold up the football and then say, “Gentlemen, this is a football.” He didn’t say it in an English accent like I did, but you get the point. It’s all about the basics.
If we lose sight of the basics we get into this over complicating making things complex when, pick on a matter what I said earlier, we should be looking to keep simple, to keep elegant and focusing on the basics goes a long way to helping us business owners do that. Clare Mask’s message was follow-up. Fix the follow-up. Put the follow-up in place, automate it wherever possible using Infusionsoft, ideally, and you will simplify your growth in a way that you never thought possible.
Pieter: It’s also what you said about people have two-years, three-years sequences. I know a previous business, when I was doing [inaudible 00:24:45] automation we knew that the average time from someone inquiring to us actually being onsite was average nine months. Now, for those nine months I have to keep their interest. I have to make sure we remember we exist. You have to choose how you do it depending on your market. There’s no point me saying to them after three weeks, well, if you order before Friday I’ll give you a discount, because a lot of the time they didn’t even have the wall for us to hang tvs on. They haven’t built the house yet.
PDD: People buy when they’re ready to buy.
Pieter: Yeah, but you have to just keep making sure they remember you’re there. You’re still interested in the project. You’re still interested in them, happy to answer questions and it’s just the timeframe of the sequence depending on your business. It should certainly be there.
PDD: To summarise, there’s one thing that I could ask people to take away from this podcast is that if you haven’t gotten automated follow-up system in place, even one of those areas, lead gen welcome or long-term nurture, then do yourself and your business, and your family and the people that you care about, a favour and shut off everything else for a day or two days and get that done. Maybe you think you can’t afford Infusionsoft. Well, there are other tools out there that are at a lower cost, but if you want to simplify your growth and to achieve that kind of nirvana of balance in your work life, in your personal life, rather than being consumed whole by this thing called your business then you got to fix your follow-up.
Pieter: Great point to focus on.
PDD: I know what you’re going to ask me next, and that’s what I’m working on.
Pieter: That’s the bit your working on.
PDD: Guess what, it’s my follow-up. I’ve got my notes here that I wrote at ICON and right across that first page on [inaudible 00:26:28] talk is how can I make sure that the follow-up for people that instal Macanta is as effective as possible. That’s what I’m working on this week, is getting those three campaigns in place for Macanta, which is my focus in my business.
Pieter: Well, I’m going to try and pull a bit more out of you here. A lot of value in what you’ve said so far and the way you’ve done it. I always like talking to you. There’s a level of enthusiasm that I don’t have in any other conversations. I’m often described as a bit morose and a miserable bastard. You’re a very good antidote for that. Three business books that you would recommend to every business owner you come across.
PDD: Well, we’ve talked a lot in this call about the one thing [inaudible 00:27:11] mentioned anyway, and we said there is no one thing. There is no magic bullet, but one book that I would highly recommend any business owner read is the book called The One Thing by a guy called Gary Keller. You’re nodding your head though. I can see that you’re read it. Really, the essence of the book is repeatedly asking yourself the question, one thing that I could do now, that if it was done made everything easier or unnecessary. Gary found that when he started asking himself that question then started … He was a managing training his staff and a lot of other managers to ask themselves that question. The results, in terms of business growth, were immense because it helps you cut through …
People talk about multitasking and the ability to multitask. It’s a myth. It’s bullocks. It does not exist. The human mind is only capable of working on one thing at a time. Being able to ask yourself a question like that, what one thing that if I accomplished it would make everything else unnecessary or easier just helps you focus on the thing right now that you should be doing right now that you should be doing that’s the most effective use of your time. We haven’t got a lot of it, so make sure you’re spending it on things that are going to have the biggest impact.
Pieter: It’s quite interesting you mentioned that because about a year ago David and I did an episode just on the one thing, just discussing that book, how we tried to use it and how focus on that. I can definitely second that. What else would you-
PDD: You should put a link to that episode in the show notes. The second book then is a book by the wonderful … He is a clinical psychologist, a guy called Dr. Robert Cialdini. His book, Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion, is a layman’s explanation of the results of clinical studies around the psychology of persuasion. They employ the scientific method. They come up with a hypothesis and they test it with controls and whatever. The number of times I hear people referring to the law of scarcity, the law of reciprocity, the law of commitment and consistency, these things, which when you see them unveiled by Robert Cialdini in the book Influence you think, yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense. I can see how I have been influenced in the past and how I can use these psychological tools if you like to help me become a better sales person, a better marketer, a better person, obviously, if you use it for good and not ill. The last book, and you probably think I’m a sycophantic [00:29:53].
Pieter: I reserve judgement .
PDD: But it’s your book. People listening to this podcast won’t be able to get hold of it, but it’s your book, Barefoot Business. I was incredibly privileged when you asked me if I would read it and just give you a bit of feedback. What you’ve done in that book … How can I describe this? It encapsulates so much of what we talked about. Businesses can be complex things and yet you highlight just three system, which if you put them into your business and you put them into your well, you think about it, you make it up. I know your process, that you have white [room 00:30:28]. That comes out in the book. You got to think about it correctly. Similar to the three systems that Clare Mask was talking about, but the way that you describe how to come up with these systems and how to implement them, it’s a brilliant book. It deserves to be a best seller.
Pieter: That was very kind [crosstalk 00:30:47]
PDD: That’s all I can say. Well worth getting a hold of when it finally hits [inaudible 00:30:53] and whenever it’s going be [crosstalk 00:30:56]
Pieter: It should be out shortly. I’ve had the final [type 00:30:58] sent back. The next step if for them to start printing it.
PDD: Can I just clarify for the sake of listeners that I was not paid for that recommendation.
Pieter: [inaudible 00:31:09] Other books are available.
PDD: Yes, indeed. Your results may differ, but I’m a similar elk to you, little bit nerdy, little bit geeky, although you love people a lot, love business and I’ve being around systems and automation possibly even longer than you have and yet I learned a tonne from your book. I hope that says more about the quality of your thinking and your writing than it does about me and my [crosstalk 00:31:35] possible slow learning like [inaudible 00:31:41]. Peter’s a nice guy, but could try harder kind of thing.
Pieter: I think we all get those. Well, as it always is, it’s been a real pleasure catching up and having a chat. I’m sure there’s a lot here that people can take away. What I would say, in keeping with the theme of a lot of what we’ve talked about, don’t try and do it all. Just pick one thing you heard today that you think is worth your time, worth your effort and focus on that.
PDD: If you haven’t got that follow-up in place that we’ve talked about then if that’s not your one thing then please email me and tell me what else you found-
Pieter: That could be more important.
PDD: That could be more important than that. Seriously. You can do that at [email protected] That’s the easiest way of getting a hold of me, quite happy for people to email in any questions.
Pieter: That’s [email protected]
PDD: Conquerthechaos.org. If anyone listening to this has Infusionsoft and they think that what I’ve said about Macanta might be interesting they just go macanta.org. They can check it out from there.
Pieter: Brilliant. I’ll make sure we put links to all of that in the notes. I can happily endorse Macanta. It is a fabulous tool. Having used Infusionsoft for several years now it’s a much required addition to anyone who uses it. We vote for that.
PDD: Thank you.
Pieter: Brilliant. We will catch up soon, I’m sure. I will leave it there. Thanks to you for joining us. Thanks to everyone for listening and if you’ve enjoyed this share it about. Comments, questions, let us know what you think. If you have any specific questions we can perhaps deal with them in a future episode. Thank you very much. Goodbye.
Author: Pieter K de Villiers
Pieter K de Villiers is slightly obsessed with systems. The systems and process automation he builds for small businesses are transformative, to say the least. Pieter is a Co-Founder of Barefoot Digital and the Amazon best-selling author of “Barefoot Business: 3 key systems to attract more leads, win more sales and delight more customers without your business killing you”.